DedMansHand VS. DanB

[DanB88OR22]

I was playing VS our own DedMansHand in a little 25NL 6 max game. A few hands in this hand occurs.

I am dealt As 3s on the CO and raise it to $1.25 DedMansHand on the button min-re-raises me to $2.25 total everyone else folds and I call.
Flop 3d 6s 8s So I flop a pair, flush draw and an over card. Pretty good flop I'd say.

So I bet enough to put DedMansHand All in. (about $3.50) He calls and has K K

Turn: 4d

River: 4s

I win :D

Ded starts calling me a donkey and such. When I told him it was a great flop for me he called it a "Cr@p flop" and starts telling me stfu and stuff like this. I tell him "whosyourdaddy" LOL

[NutFlopper]

Just a little fyi to people.

The previous issue between the two has been settled, and this is nothing more then trash talk because of a friendly rivalry.

[DanB88OR22]

Exactly. I have no more hard feelings against DedMansHand and vise versa

[DedMansHand]

...telling me stfu and stuff like this...

:confused:

It never ceases to amaze me how a line of a conversation can be taken so completely out of context. The "stfu" had more to do with your banter on other issues which have been resolved than anything else. True, chronologically, it was spoken some time after the hand in question, but there were many things being said back and forth at that time. If you think that the poker play in particular is what put me on tilt that evening, you are sadly, sadly mistaken! I was on tilt long before that hand was ever dealt, and should have ignored or sat out before you had the opportunity to steal my chips!


:D

Have Fun at the tables.

BTW... Welcome back to forum! Your welcome... and GREAT START! ;)

[Miklosik]

Bottom pair and a draw is a good flop? You're trying to justify a suckout and it ain't workin'. I would have a bit more respect for your play if you simply said that you felt like gambling and it paid off.

[DanB88OR22]

Bottom pair and a draw is a good flop? You're trying to justify a suckout and it ain't workin'. I would have a bit more respect for your play if you simply said that you felt like gambling and it paid off.

You must be fairly new...
Count my outs here
9 spades to make the flush
3 aces to make 2 pair
2 thress to make trips
a total of 14 outs right?
So since this is the flop you say 14 x 4 = 56% chance to hit my hand by the river
This video might help you out ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn97ymhgp_w

[DedMansHand]

Okay... insulting Miklosik by saying "you must be fairly new" is really not necessary... you got one hell of a pompus attitude there Dan...

Yes, you had outs. The reason I think and said you are a "flush chasing donk" is because, well, you are! You are playing lotto not poker!!! A good player does not raise 5X the blind with A-Rag hands like these, and then call a re-raise after that before even seeing the flop. Yes, I believe you made a good decision after the flop was down... but your overall play was as donk suckout as they come! You should not have been in the hand to begin with! Oh wait.. I forgot... it was soooooooted! LOL... "Cuz you know, professional players play every two cards they get when they are soooooted. Didn't you know that? Or are you new to poker?" Gimmie a friggin break...NEXT!

[DanB88OR22]

Okay... insulting Miklosik by saying "you must be fairly new" is really not necessary... you got one hell of a pompus attitude there Dan...

Yes, you had outs. The reason I think and said you are a "flush chasing donk" is because, well, you are! You are playing lotto not poker!!! A good player does not raise 5X the blind with A-Rag hands like these, and then call a re-raise after that before even seeing the flop. Yes, I believe you made a good decision after the flop was down... but your overall play was as donk suckout as they come! You should not have been in the hand to begin with! Oh wait.. I forgot... it was soooooooted! LOL... "Cuz you know, professional players play every two cards they get when they are soooooted. Didn't you know that? Or are you new to poker?" Gimmie a friggin break...NEXT!

Well, to me that comment of his "trying to justify a suckout" when in fact I was the favorite to win was a little bit off. And sounds that of a new player. maybe I am wrong. Normally I would have just raise 4x the blind but there was 1 limper also. And for what its worth, I would have folded to any raise bigger than the min.

[DedMansHand]

Well, to me that comment of his "trying to justify a suckout" when in fact I was the favorite to win was a little bit off. And sounds that of a new player. maybe I am wrong. Normally I would have just raise 4x the blind but there was 1 limper also. And for what its worth, I would have folded to any raise bigger than the min.

Thats my point, There is already one "limper" in the pot, and I am on the button. You in middle position... raised 5X the blind with Ace-Rag...That is where the "donk" comment originates. Not on your outs, or anything else that happened at that table. Ace -Rag, whether it is suited or not, is not a hand with which professional players would be raising 5X while sitting in middle position. And then to call after there is an additional re-raise??? For Christmas, I am buying you scratch of lotto tickets. Maybe then you will stay away from the poker tables long enough for some of us to play POKER!
;)

Edit... btw... your math is wrong...

you only had 13 outs, as there were two "3's" already in play, and you counted 3 of them as outs... plus I had Ks... so that subtracts another... You originally said 15 outs... when it was 13!

it was basicaly a coin flip, and you made your decision to put me all in holding "Ace 3?"

Sorry I stand by my assessment... Flush chasing donk!

[DanB88OR22]

Thats my point, There is already one "limper" in the pot, and I am on the button. You in middle position... raised 5X the blind with Ace-Rag...That is where the "donk" comment originates. Not on your outs, or anything else that happened at that table. Ace -Rag, whether it is suited or not, is not a hand with which professional players would be raising 5X while sitting in middle position. And then to call after there is an additional re-raise??? For Christmas, I am buying you scratch of lotto tickets. Maybe then you will stay away from the poker tables long enough for some of us to play POKER!
;)

It is not my standard to raise A 3 suited in that situation. But you gotta mix it up every once in a while :D

[DedMansHand]

It is not my standard to raise A 3 suited in that situation. But you gotta mix it up every once in a while :D

OMG... he finally did it. This is all I wanted you to say from the word go, at the table and and in here. It is'nt the best hand to play wth. I know you were not sorry you won, but there is a small piece of you that knew it was not the wisest poker play, you just got lucky!

Thats it!!!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!! Much more respect now!

And so you know, when I get lucky like that and donk out on someone, I usually apologize as I know how it burns when you lose to someone else's sub-standard play. I think you may actually have learned something about yourself now. Next time maybe you wont be dancing all around the table and calling out whosyourdaddy... as the truth is, you should be humbled by the fact you simply got LUCKY! A players sportsmanship is almost as important as his skill IMO. You were a very, horribly nasty winner in this case as you pointed out in your own comments of "dance" and "whosyourdaddy"...very unsporting indeed under the circumstances. Next time have some humility when you win with sub-standard play and pure lucky coin-flips, and maybe that luck will stay on your side!

Good luck at the tables!

[DanB88OR22]

it was basicaly a coin flip, and you made your decision to put me all in holding "Ace 3?"

Sorry I stand by my assessment... Flush chasing donk!

When you only have about $3.50 I'd put you/call you all in any day of the week there;)

[DedMansHand]

It is not my standard to raise A 3 suited in that situation. But you gotta mix it up every once in a while :D

OMG... he finally did it. This is all I wanted you to say from the word go, at the table and and in here. It is'nt the best hand to play wth. I know you were not sorry you won, but there is a small piece of you that knew it was not the wisest poker play, you just got lucky!

Thats it!!!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!!

And so you know, when I get lucky like that and donk out on someone, I usually apologize as I know how it burns when you lose to someone else's sub-standard play. I think you may actually have learned something about yourself now. Next time maybe you wont be dancing all around the table and calling out whosyourdaddy... as the truth is, you should be humbled by the fact you simply got LUCKY! A players sportsmanship is almost as important as his skill IMO. You were a very, horribly nasty winner in this case as you pointed out in your own comments of "dance" and "whosyourdaddy"...very unsporting indeed under the circumstances. Next time have some humility when you win with sub-standard play and pure lucky coin-flips, and maybe that luck will stay on your side!


When you only have about $3.50 I'd put you/call you all in any day of the week there;)


There is more to this game besides strategy and probability, both of which you are well phrased Dan.

Try focusing on the style, class, and humility that make this game the art that it is! How you act when you play is as important as the plays you make in themselves!


Honestly I do the "whosyourdaddy" and "dance" moves on most of my suckouts or legit wins. i do not cosider that hand a suckout though.

FYI...

SUCKOUT- Definition: When your strong poker hand is beat by another player's hand because they hit their draw, it's called a suckout (http://poker.about.com/od/pokerglossary/g/suckout.htm)

What is so hard for you to understand????

[DanB88OR22]

Honestly I do the "whosyourdaddy" and "dance" moves on most of my suckouts or legit wins. i do not cosider that hand a suckout though. Those moves tend to put people on tilt and fruterate them in my experience

[Miklosik]

post flop your 49% to DMH 51%. Post turn your 29.5% to DMH 70.5%.

So what is your definition of a suckout?

[DanB88OR22]

post flop your 49% to DMH 51%. Post turn your 29.5% to DMH 70.5%.

So what is your definition of a suckout?

This hand is pretty much a coin flip post flop(Me with the slight advantage). Look at that video I posted to your last comment. A suck out would be something like DMH 80% favorite me 20%

[DedMansHand]

This hand is pretty much a coin flip post flop(Me with the slight advantage). Look at that video I posted to your last comment. A suck out would be something like DMH 80% favorite me 20%

Again, WRONG.... I had the statistical advantage preflop, with the flop, and with the turn. It was only with 5th street that you delivered a beat!

[DanB88OR22]

Again, WRONG.... I had the statistical advantage preflop, with the flop, and with the turn. It was only with 5th street that you delivered a beat!

If I would have put all my money in pre flop or on the turn I would have to agree with you. However I put my money in when I was a slight favorite. On the FLOP.:rolleyes:

[DedMansHand]

If I would have put all my money in pre flop or on the turn I would have to agree with you. However I put my money in when I was a slight favorite. On the FLOP.:rolleyes:

DUDE... PLEASE READ VERY CAREFULLY...on the Flop, you were 49% fav to win... I was 51% fav to win... how do you figure you were the one with the slight advantage. Statistically, I dominated from the word go... and technically, (I know math might be a matter of opinion in your mind) you only won the hand on the river. You were statistically, at every point in the hand, slated to lose, until you out drew me on the river.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION... THESE NUMBERS ARE THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE OF A SUCK OUT!

[DedMansHand]

If I would have put all my money in pre flop or on the turn I would have to agree with you. However I put my money in when I was a slight favorite. On the FLOP.:rolleyes:

DUDE... PLEASE READ VERY CAREFULLY...on the Flop, you were 49% fav to win... I was 51% fav to win... how do you figure you were the one with the slight advantage. Statistically, your two hole cards were dominated from the word go... and technically, (I know math might be a matter of opinion in your mind) you only won the hand on the river. You were statistically, at every point in the hand, slated to lose, until you out drew me on the river.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION... THESE NUMBERS ARE THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE OF A SUCK OUT!

The math obviously is making no sense to you or your argument at all. Just because you state your perspective 100 times, does not make your perspective the factual one. You really are starting to sound foolish. Over... done... end... finished... NEXT!

[DanB88OR22]

This is how I figure I was a slight advantage. Where do you get only me a 49% favorite?

Count my outs here
9 spades to make the flush
3 aces to make 2 pair
2 thress to make trips
a total of 14 outs right?
So since this is the flop you say 14 x 4 = 56% chance to hit my hand by the river
This video might help you out ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn97ymhgp_w
So Phil Gordon is wrong here with his 4 rule? hmmmm

[DedMansHand]

Count my outs here
9 spades to make the flush
3 aces to make 2 pair
2 thress to make trips
a total of 14 outs right?
So since this is the flop you say 14 x 4 = 56% chance to hit my hand by the river
This video might help you out ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn97ymhgp_w
So Phil Gordon is wrong here with his 4 rule? hmmmm


franky, yes... if you wanna talk statistics... then you were 49% post flop... to my 51%

again... I am done with this subject. I do not expect you to admit u r a flush chasing donk... and there is nothing you can say that will alter that assessment! NEXT!

[DanB88OR22]

can you show me the math how you get different numbers than phil gordon?

[deek1972]

u counted ur outs the way phil gordon said dont, yes u had 9 spades to make flush, (assuming deadman didnt have the king spades??) 3 aces to make trips, but the ace spades has already been counted in ur original flush outs, ur 2 3s still count, so ur 56% chance on the flop has whittled down to what there both saying, prob 52%, in other words, a coin flip.. then after the turn, ur with 1 card to go, ur percentage will go down prob by a couple of % so i think there quite correct.. still more or less a coin flip.. bad raise, bad play, got lucky, quite simple.. its an every day occurence on here.. ps sorry for busting in.. :wave:

[DedMansHand]

I will give you a visual...



Refresh everyones memory of the hand...



http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/DedMansHand/ScreenHunter_03Oct210451.gif

so here is the hand calculated out, with pictures so you can see even...



Preflop...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/DedMansHand/Preflop.gif


Flop...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/DedMansHand/PostFlop.gif


Turn...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e289/DedMansHand/PostTurn.gif




AND WHO CAN FORGET YOUR MAGICAL SUCKOUT ON THE RIVER.....

http://www.alexhughescartoons.co.uk/Home/uploaded_images/AlGore-4ofSpades-724198.png





If anyone else should have the misfortune of running into DanB at the tables... remember this image....


http://www.gamingmmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/donkey_xing_thumb_640.jpg



PS... the correct difference is +2.22% of me being favorite to win after that flop. You really tried hard... but failed in so many aspects to prove anything other than you should not have been in the hand, and only thing you had on your side was not science or math... but blind lotto luck. This hand doesn't merit bragging in the forum or at the tables by any stretch of the imagination! Real sportsman like of ya though!

DONE!!!!

[deek1972]

lol deadman, so u had the king spades, which he now has 12 outs, 48% of hitting his hand... with phil gordons 4 and 2 rule.. after the turn his odds are now 24 % 2x outs as in 2x12 outs.. 24% surely if hes posting such odds and facts, hed kinda understand it a little better.. :wave:

[Snoggler]

lmfao. :win: :crown: Awsome post! And so ded true!!! And so elequintly said!! :D

[DanB88OR22]

u counted ur outs the way phil gordon said dont, yes u had 9 spades to make flush, (assuming deadman didnt have the king spades??) 3 aces to make trips, but the ace spades has already been counted in ur original flush outs, ur 2 3s still count, so ur 56% chance on the flop has whittled down to what there both saying, prob 52%, in other words, a coin flip.. then after the turn, ur with 1 card to go, ur percentage will go down prob by a couple of % so i think there quite correct.. still more or less a coin flip.. bad raise, bad play, got lucky, quite simple.. its an every day occurence on here.. ps sorry for busting in.. :wave:

Ace of spades was in my hand. I did not count it towards my outs

[DanB88OR22]

Ok, looks like I may have been wrong about being a slight favorite... oops
So you were the slight favorite by 1.11% my bad
Still I do not see this as a suckout at all. I put my money in on the flop not the turn. Where we both would agree it is more or less a coin flip with you winning about 51/100 times

[fritzson]

How ever you twist and turn this subject and hand... it is a suckout:

Quoted from a poker dictionary: "Sucking out: To be dealt cards that complete one's hand or improve the hand enough to win even though the hand was previously an underdog."

And taken from another site with poker glossary: Suckout "means someone hit a draw against you to win the hand".


And a last one: quoted from an site in merge network (can't tell you the name, it is against the rules) "Winning a hand by hitting a draw against another player."


Soo... I think we can say it is a suckout in the end.
http://www.fritzy.se/im/suckout.gif

[DanB88OR22]

I guess you can call it a "suckout" if you choose. But I will "suckout" in that situation about 49/100 times LOL

[fritzson]

I guess you can call it a "suckout" if you choose. But I will "suckout" in that situation about 49/100 times LOL

Well, we are all donkeys in between... ;)

[bluelips]

can you show me the math how you get different numbers than phil gordon?

phil gordon obv doesn't take into account the chances of DMH improving

you have 49%, not 56 imo

but still this thread is lame, we cant poast about every hand where we lose with a 2% advantage

[bluelips]

Losing QQ aipf to AKs is more of a suckout than this hand

[Miklosik]

So it would appear that this NEWBIE'S calcs were correct from the beginning. I await an apology. And I was being generous with the 49-51 scenario. If it were a ten person table, 16 cards have already hit the muck and the law of averages says that 4 of them were spades. Add the burn card and you've lost an A or 3. Cuts your odds a bit yes? Makes this hand an even bigger suckout.

[almurray]

Does it really ****ing matter. Who gives a flying ****.

[Miklosik]

You're right, Al. As profanity is a tool of the ignorant and you took it upon yourself to bring it here, then let's give up on this one. Btw, have you read the last line of your signature lately?

[almurray]

You're right, Al. As profanity is a tool of the ignorant and you took it upon yourself to bring it here, then let's give up on this one. Btw, have you read the last line of your signature lately?

Yes, but I dont name them. I do like to swear. ****ing *******s **** mother ****er. But only in context.

And that wasnt abusive to you, just trying to be funny

[fritzson]

I guess we can drop the subject... the only question which reminds, that we can carry on to the future;

How much are we willing to pay for a glass of milk? :confused:

[deek1972]

I guess we can drop the subject... the only question which reminds, that we can carry on to the future;

How much are we willing to pay for a glass of milk? :confused:

lol, who gives a flying ****?? i dont drink milk. lol :wave:

[almurray]

I guess we can drop the subject... the only question which reminds, that we can carry on to the future;

How much are we willing to pay for a glass of milk? :confused:

How big's the glass?

[DedMansHand]

is it a pint or a quart caraffe? makes a big difference...LOL

http://i.ivillage.com/green/slideshows/milk_325.jpg


and is there a straw for the suckout???

[deek1972]

pml :D

[DedMansHand]

pml :D



http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42091000/jpg/_42091962_cowparade_ap.jpg

[fritzson]

It is a small glass! But hey, if you win jackpot you will get a pint too!!! :eek: :D

[bluelips]

If it were a ten person table, 16 cards have already hit the muck and the law of averages says that 4 of them were spades. Add the burn card and you've lost an A or 3. Cuts your odds a bit yes? .

you obv can't count outs this way :eek::eek:

[Miklosik]

you obv can't count outs this way :eek::eek:

You are the eternal optimist my dearest blue! I am so glad you have returned to our humble home. I can count odds any way I please, tyvm. :-p

[armbrust]

If it were a ten person table, 16 cards have already hit the muck and the law of averages says that 4 of them were spades. Add the burn card and you've lost an A or 3. Cuts your odds a bit yes? Makes this hand an even bigger suckout.


Wrong, the average says 5,22-1 were spades, in this situation after the flop.

[saftogbrus]

Miklosik you forgot to mention that any spade from the previous hand would be at the bottom of the deck. But folding an ace is ludicrous- there is no card that is higher!

[deek1972]

Miklosik you forgot to mention that any spade from the previous hand would be at the bottom of the deck. But folding an ace is ludicrous- there is no card that is higher!

say what? :confused:

[Jason]

whao...that was an interesting read. After reading that all - my opinion - A coin flip percentage is not really a suckout despite those definitions someone quoted.

Though the point that this brings about that im now curious about, is when in the game, and remembering that you usually have close to 15 seconds to count your outs and figure your odds, do you make the call if you after close to 50/50 after the flop if you are chasing. Obviously in such circumstance you arent exactly 50/50 its more a tad unfavourable, but at what rough percentage do you fold. If you reply, make up your mind in the 15 seconds you would have in game, stick to that though then write it. Thoughts change alot after you get the time to analyze them.

Do you chase a flush draw with two strong over cards? :S

[DanB88OR22]

I think it depends whether it is a cash game or a tournament. In a tournament I would be more likely to fold in a spot I think is a coinflip. In a cash game however if I am pretty sure I have about 50% chance to win I will call, because in the long run these decisions will not effect your win rate. Also I like to be the aggresor in those type of situations so there is always the chance to fold out your oponent. As far as a specific percentage I would need to make the call. I would say 45% or more.

I agree with you about there definition of suckout being off. When I will "suckout" there about 50%. Now if it was 20% or maybe 10% that is a suckout.

[trodai]

ohh please dan, who are you trying to impress?


tisk tisk