whats your play here?

[carpenter4]

early in the MTT leaderboard Grand Final ..about 25 hands in
sb..$15
bb..$30
utg..call
utg+1..call
+2..f
+3..f
hero..R-$180:Ah::Kd:
+5..f
+6..f
+7..f
button..f
sb..f
bb..f
utg..calls $150
+1..calls $150
flop..:Ac::4h::5s:
utg..c
+1..bets$585
hero..R $1365
utg..f
+1..calls $780
turn..:Tc:
pot was $3315
+1..all in-$2155

villian in this hand 24/4 ..this was 2nd time player had limped and called a raise from early pos. and had been limping from all other pos. as well
i had him covered by 1000 chips or so
IMO i had a tight image
my pre flop raise is good, flop raise is good..felt i had best hand

what makes this so diffucult is its so early in such a big tourny
and i will be in VERY bad shape if i call and lose
just wondering if i made a good play....

so call or fold?

gl...e1

[MASKOAA]

I think your problem is you made the pot 2 big, even preflop raising to 6x the big blind is just asking for trouble after the flop if the wrong flop comes. Your leaving yourself no folding room if you hit the Ace or King and they hit a set or A weak kicker and pair the kicker to.

[ChaseMan16]

Tuff call. Although u probaly had best hand I probaly would have folded early in tourney

[FOURDEAD36]

Tuff call. Although u probaly had best hand I probaly would have folded early in tourney

ditto!!! bad fold better then a bad call :cool:

[Miklosik]

I think AK is the most overrated hand in poker. Especially unsooooooted. I think the pf raise was too much. I kinda like the post flop raise tho since you bet so much pre. you have find out if he hit a set or not. When he calls, I would assume he did.

[bluelips]

ditto!!! bad fold better then a bad call :cool:

NOT IMO, GO BROKE ON THAT FLOP

you have find out if he hit a set or not. When he calls, I would assume he did.

i would not assume that

[Miklosik]

i would not assume that

Do you put him on a strong Ace? I thought small to mid pair because of the utg limp. He's not gonna lead out post flop with a pot size bet on anything less than strong ace or set. Would he?

[carpenter4]

I think your problem is you made the pot 2 big, even preflop raising to 6x the big blind is just asking for trouble after the flop if the wrong flop comes. Your leaving yourself no folding room if you hit the Ace or King and they hit a set or A weak kicker and pair the kicker to.

lil strong maybe shoulda 5x but player had limped called befor
that with another limper , and plenty of players still to act
i like the 6x ...

[carpenter4]

I think AK is the most overrated hand in poker. Especially unsooooooted. I think the pf raise was too much. I kinda like the post flop raise tho since you bet so much pre. you have find out if he hit a set or not. When he calls, I would assume he did.

i generally play AK preflop as if i have AA or KK ...not over rated IMO
overplayed post flop...:wave:

[carpenter4]

i think this player checks any set ...esp an A hi flop
when i raised on flop and he just called i figured a weaker A
besides a set what could he have?
stright draw is unlikely,2 pair unlikely,KK,QQ,JJ probaly not
and like i said hes checking any set so my hand is good IMO
with the 10c on turn and he shoves ...did he start with AT
only A he can have that is beating me now,,Q J 9-6are all posible
maybe not the 6 or 7 but 8s

i called ...and youve already guessed im sure... it was the ATo

gl...e1

and this put me in such a good mood i told a couple of donkeys
what i really thought of them later in a different game....
sometimes its hard not to tap the glass

[KenLight]

You're making a pre-flop call very profitable when you pay hands off like this. Plus you crippled yourself early in a tournament with TPTK! All that EV gone because you got a tiny piece of the flop! Stop that!

More specific:
Raise was way to big, and then the raise on the flop made the pot about twice the size it should be with a hand as weak as TPTK. Then calling the shove? Well you pot-committed yourself, but that doesn't make it a good play. Yes, his play was worse, but who cares?

You'd benefit HUGE from thinking about pot size compared to hand size, both yours and his. Bluff to make the pot bigger than his hand should play, value bet and even check/call to keep the pot the right size for your hand. If the pot gets bigger than your hand...gotta fold.

[ChrisGill]

Fold pre obv

[Miklosik]

Fold pre obv

smarta$$

[ChrisGill]

smarta$$

:D

But srsly, standard

[carpenter4]

You're making a pre-flop call very profitable when you pay hands off like this. Plus you crippled yourself early in a tournament with TPTK! All that EV gone because you got a tiny piece of the flop! Stop that!

More specific:
Raise was way to big, and then the raise on the flop made the pot about twice the size it should be with a hand as weak as TPTK. Then calling the shove? Well you pot-committed yourself, but that doesn't make it a good play. Yes, his play was worse, but who cares?

You'd benefit HUGE from thinking about pot size compared to hand size, both yours and his. Bluff to make the pot bigger than his hand should play, value bet and even check/call to keep the pot the right size for your hand. If the pot gets bigger than your hand...gotta fold.


pot control..something i deff need work at
couple questions...
1..pre flop ,2 limpers one is known to limp/call both have limped plenty,
i belive im ahead of both ranges enough times,alot of players still to act,
a 3x and 4x dont discoarage late pos players/blinds from coming along,
im really tryin to isolate limpers,best case 1 of them
2..i cant see flat callin flop when im confident im ahead, hes drawin slim and
will call
3..on turn with pot odds and being simi pot commited ,this is a really tuff lay down for me...if my read is correct he only has 1 hand that is beating me
so if i fold to 1 poss holding here i belive im making a huge mistake
4..read on this player was ...fishy,Loose/Passive pre flop Loose/Weak post
have played with player some in past ...aggainst other styles of play
such as a rock my line post flop would have been very diff..probaly flat
flop, fold to any bet or ck behind turn,if ck turn probaly call riv bet
up to half pot / never raising ...this line cant be right for both styles

i realize these are not really questions but more my train of thought
and that this is a TPTK hand ..in smaller buy in tournys $2-$5 which is what
i play, usally rebuys i belive this is a +ev line against this type of opponet
but like i said pot controll is a part of my game that i know needs work
because at these stakes alot of time im not even thinking about it
just pushing any edge i can find ,,,when i belive im ahead i raise
tryin to get as much value from the "calling station nation" that i play in

any comments or sudgestion would be much appreciated
always open to new ways to think about sittuations and this is one that
happens alot

[carpenter4]

Fold pre obv

obv

[KenLight]

pot control..something i deff need work at
couple questions...
1..pre flop ,2 limpers one is known to limp/call both have limped plenty,
i belive im ahead of both ranges enough times,alot of players still to act,
a 3x and 4x dont discoarage late pos players/blinds from coming along,
im really tryin to isolate limpers,best case 1 of them
2..i cant see flat callin flop when im confident im ahead, hes drawin slim and
will call
3..on turn with pot odds and being simi pot commited ,this is a really tuff lay down for me...if my read is correct he only has 1 hand that is beating me
so if i fold to 1 poss holding here i belive im making a huge mistake
4..read on this player was ...fishy,Loose/Passive pre flop Loose/Weak post
have played with player some in past ...aggainst other styles of play
such as a rock my line post flop would have been very diff..probaly flat
flop, fold to any bet or ck behind turn,if ck turn probaly call riv bet
up to half pot / never raising ...this line cant be right for both styles

i realize these are not really questions but more my train of thought
and that this is a TPTK hand ..in smaller buy in tournys $2-$5 which is what
i play, usally rebuys i belive this is a +ev line against this type of opponet
but like i said pot controll is a part of my game that i know needs work
because at these stakes alot of time im not even thinking about it
just pushing any edge i can find ,,,when i belive im ahead i raise
tryin to get as much value from the "calling station nation" that i play in

any comments or sudgestion would be much appreciated
always open to new ways to think about sittuations and this is one that
happens alot

For a good look at pot control, I strongly recommend Daniel Negreanu's new book, his chapter on small ball. Another thing that's going to do is, relatedly, make you re-think your pre-flop strategy. You have AKo, man, not AA, that's a drawing hand. Drawing hands play well MULTI-WAY, so why the hell are you trying to isolate? I know the internet players like to "iso-bet" or whatever, but seriously, I want 3 or 4 callers coming along with AKo. Maybe one of them has QK or AQ and I can get a good chunk of their stack with the right flop. Heck, in an ideal world maybe I take a flop against AQ and QK and the flop is an AK6 rainbow. Point is you need to want to see a flop here and to want that you're going to have to get more comfortable post-flop.

So go get the Negreanu book and start thinking about your post-flop game and taking more flops with more opponents on your drawing hands. Had you limped in and he bet pot, your raise would have left you with an easier fold to his shove and more chips left to grind back up with. Had he not hit his miracle 10 no way he shoves and you just value bet him to death with his garbage kicker.

Good luck!

[DADuhWEEwah]

NOT IMO, GO BROKE ON THAT FLOP



i would not assume that

go broke also or double up

i dont like thinking when i play

i dont even know what 24/4 means

i dont know poker lingo and you all speak spanish to me (esp on other forums)

gut baby

[DADuhWEEwah]

analyzing hands is useless also.... you dont learn from reading an analyzed hand, you learn from your own mistakes and having ur teeth kicked in not basing your plays off #s and formulas on what other people do

if you are right 30% of the time with AK there and pick all those chips up its a good play... its so valuable to have all those chips, u cant win the tourney nursing 5 BB the whole way without a ton of luck, and its not like having 60 BB was going to leave you room to play with the way the tables play early also


yay for me i slept in for this tourney, i want rollover chips for next time, kind of like rollover minutes on my cell phone

please?

[carpenter4]

For a good look at pot control, I strongly recommend Daniel Negreanu's new book, his chapter on small ball. Another thing that's going to do is, relatedly, make you re-think your pre-flop strategy. You have AKo, man, not AA, that's a drawing hand. Drawing hands play well MULTI-WAY, so why the hell are you trying to isolate? I know the internet players like to "iso-bet" or whatever, but seriously, I want 3 or 4 callers coming along with AKo. Maybe one of them has QK or AQ and I can get a good chunk of their stack with the right flop. Heck, in an ideal world maybe I take a flop against AQ and QK and the flop is an AK6 rainbow. Point is you need to want to see a flop here and to want that you're going to have to get more comfortable post-flop.

So go get the Negreanu book and start thinking about your post-flop game and taking more flops with more opponents on your drawing hands. Had you limped in and he bet pot, your raise would have left you with an easier fold to his shove and more chips left to grind back up with. Had he not hit his miracle 10 no way he shoves and you just value bet him to death with his garbage kicker.

Good luck!
this is diff a book i want to pick up ..have heard nothing but good things
i iso-bet for pos. post flop...im looking for multi way pots with small and mid
pairs , suited conn ,and some suited gappers in this spot

i just cant see a limp there.. inviting all sorts of limpers without getting any info ..all kinds of hands would have good odds to play
i understand this makes for easier fold post flop but dont you lose alot of value in a very strong starting hand
i guess im more of a value betting type / if i think im ahead i raise
i know this makes me more perdictable to good players but they are far and few at the limits i play...and ill take diff lines on hands when they are involved

dont take me wrong Ken im not saying your wrong and im right
i know my game needs plenty of work (esp post flop)and i appericate all you have said
gave me alot to think about ...and i belive some small ball tactics will improve my overall game

thanks for your replies

[carpenter4]

analyzing hands is useless also.... you dont learn from reading an analyzed hand, you learn from your own mistakes and having ur teeth kicked in not basing your plays off #s and formulas on what other people do

if you are right 30% of the time with AK there and pick all those chips up its a good play... its so valuable to have all those chips, u cant win the tourney nursing 5 BB the whole way without a ton of luck, and its not like having 60 BB was going to leave you room to play with the way the tables play early also


yay for me i slept in for this tourney, i want rollover chips for next time, kind of like rollover minutes on my cell phone

please?

i belive analyzing hands is very helpful to me ,opens my eyes to different plays,lines to take, and how to read players better
just tryin to become better player and dont have people at home to talk this stuff out with
most players at home are agro donks that think they already know it all
i know i need plenty of work on my game and im lookin for ways to do this
and im tired of getting my teeth kicked in!!!

[gaslamps]

Hey happy today

[theshell2]

In my opinion, there are seven hands you're afraid of here. Pocket aces, fives or fours, 23, and two pair (A4, A5, 45). With no flush draw, I would assume I'm ahead here. The problem is it's going to cost most of your donuts to see it. In a nine handed scenario, there is about a 1/4 or 1/3 that one of these hands was dealt.

I would rule out 2-3 and 4-5 as possible hands due to the preflop raising. UTG+1 called a raise and a call. If he is on a small pocket pair (fours or fives), he made a bad call pre-flop (small pairs do dismally poor in a multihanded pot). If he's on aces... well it ain't your day. I'd shove. UTG+1 probably has AT, AJ, AQ, or AK and has put you on a pocket pair with your agressive raise. Depending on how lose the player is, he may just have ace anything.

In my opinion, I would shove on this hand. Though a pair (even top pair / top kicker) is not infallible, you have to assume you're ahead. If he catches two pair or has you beat coming in, again, it ain`t your day. These are the hands we dream of (catching and cashing on AK). If you don`t play them, you can`t call yourself a poker player.

Have fun and thanks for the post.

Matt

[carpenter4]

In my opinion, there are seven hands you're afraid of here. Pocket aces, fives or fours, 23, and two pair (A4, A5, 45). With no flush draw, I would assume I'm ahead here. The problem is it's going to cost most of your donuts to see it. In a nine handed scenario, there is about a 1/4 or 1/3 that one of these hands was dealt.

I would rule out 2-3 and 4-5 as possible hands due to the preflop raising. UTG+1 called a raise and a call. If he is on a small pocket pair (fours or fives), he made a bad call pre-flop (small pairs do dismally poor in a multihanded pot). If he's on aces... well it ain't your day. I'd shove. UTG+1 probably has AT, AJ, AQ, or AK and has put you on a pocket pair with your agressive raise. Depending on how lose the player is, he may just have ace anything.

In my opinion, I would shove on this hand. Though a pair (even top pair / top kicker) is not infallible, you have to assume you're ahead. If he catches two pair or has you beat coming in, again, it ain`t your day. These are the hands we dream of (catching and cashing on AK). If you don`t play them, you can`t call yourself a poker player.

Have fun and thanks for the post.

Matt

1- all these hands are possible but unlikely esp. AA, i have 1,1 on board, limps behind in EP then flats behind in EP...
like ive said any set or 2pair i belive he ck/R not lead bet on flop
2-IMO small pp do best in multiway pots perferbaly with postion and good odds
3-shove on flop? huge overbet IMO
when holding AK my dream flop is QJT

BTW welcome to the Forum

gl...e1

[seakcsn]

i dont think there is anything wrong with raising to isolate preflop even early in the tournament. as played though you hit the flop you were looking for and the fact that the limper is willing to call with a weaker ace is exactly the kind of thing you want. you could limp behind hoping to get more players in the pot but i think if someone after you raises then i think you find yourself in a tough spot.

i think you could make and argument for reraising all in here and leaving it up to the cards. in this hand he only has 3 outs to improve... if he has the set you still have chips left.

someone mentioned playing small ball but i dont think that would apply here as the stacks are too small. however if you make a play like this early you put yourself in the position to have a nice stack and have that option.

i mean say he doesnt hit the turn and you get an additional value bet there and then on the river the ten comes it is still the same result. if you reraise shove he has to make a decision for his whole stack and may just fold top pair weak kicker. as played he snap calls because he already invested a bet and then hits his miracle on the turn and you are committed to paying him off.

i think in internet tournaments with relatively short starting stacks you are much better building a stack when you get a good hand and hit your flop. if you go broke even though there is a big prize involved it is still basically a free roll. plus when are you going to have a chance to get that many chips this early. later with deeper stacks it would be totally different.

[seakcsn]

oh yeah.... thanks for posting. i dont have poker playing friends to talk hands with so this is a great thread with a lot of solid ideas.

cheers.

[carpenter4]

i dont think there is anything wrong with raising to isolate preflop even early in the tournament. as played though you hit the flop you were looking for and the fact that the limper is willing to call with a weaker ace is exactly the kind of thing you want. you could limp behind hoping to get more players in the pot but i think if someone after you raises then i think you find yourself in a tough spot.

i think you could make and argument for reraising all in here and leaving it up to the cards. in this hand he only has 3 outs to improve... if he has the set you still have chips left.

someone mentioned playing small ball but i dont think that would apply here as the stacks are too small. however if you make a play like this early you put yourself in the position to have a nice stack and have that option.

i mean say he doesnt hit the turn and you get an additional value bet there and then on the river the ten comes it is still the same result. if you reraise shove he has to make a decision for his whole stack and may just fold top pair weak kicker. as played he snap calls because he already invested a bet and then hits his miracle on the turn and you are committed to paying him off.

i think in internet tournaments with relatively short starting stacks you are much better building a stack when you get a good hand and hit your flop. if you go broke even though there is a big prize involved it is still basically a free roll. plus when are you going to have a chance to get that many chips this early. later with deeper stacks it would be totally different.

this tourny has differnt starting stacks also, 1st place started with around $8800
i was 46 i think and started with like $3600 another reason i belive this play has to be made

and as far as small ball goes,,its just really not my style so limp behind is out of the question
but if i did decide too and got raised behind i would diff re raise reping AA,,KK
and then fold if raiser shoved in most cases

oh yeah.... thanks for posting. i dont have poker playing friends to talk hands with so this is a great thread with a lot of solid ideas.

cheers.

np...feel free to post your hands or PM me

[seakcsn]

the more i think about it the more the iso-raise preflop makes sense to push out the 44 and 55 type of hands.

then ship it on the flop because you know you're probably well ahead at that point.

cheer when he turns his hand up, puke when you see the turn and then complain for the next 15 minutes in the chat box about how its the sites fault and how the worst hand always wins. then steam off your chips with a marginal hand.

[angryhamster]

making a preflop bet that size.. a continuation bet would be in order with the amount of all in .. that way.. you either score big or its time for playing the next game.. theres nothing wrong with getting knocked out playing AK.. infact thats usually the hand i get busted on..

[angryhamster]

http://www.carbonpoker.com/videos/videos.html?id=45


this should make you feel much much better